Register
Log In
Forget your Password?

Home
Directory
Bulletins
Forums
Blogs
Articles
Links
Classifieds
About Us
Contact Us
Advertise
FAQ
Privacy Policy


Discussion
<< get older messagesget newer messages >>
to post a message: login - or - register | search messages | hide all replies



GoGo updated contact info - K C/NJ
3/28/2011 4:19:49 PM (3224 views)
Re: GoGo updated contact info - Leigh Attridge/MA
3/28/2011 4:42:45 PM (3482 views)
Re: GoGo updated contact info - Nils Nelson/ME
3/28/2011 4:56:27 PM (3681 views)
Re: GoGo updated contact info - K C/NJ
3/30/2011 4:48:35 PM (3452 views)
Re: GoGo updated contact info - Nils Nelson/ME
3/30/2011 7:39:17 PM (3380 views)
Re: GoGo updated contact info - K C/NJ
3/31/2011 11:12:05 AM (3327 views)
Re: GoGo updated contact info - Jessica Talley/FL
3/30/2011 11:27:38 AM (3510 views)
Re: GoGo updated contact info - K C/NJ
3/30/2011 4:56:32 PM (5866 views)
Re: GoGo updated contact info - Jessica Talley/FL
3/31/2011 9:24:42 AM (3363 views)
Re: GoGo updated contact info - Dog The Bounty Hunter/NJ
3/31/2011 10:24:21 AM (6301 views)

E&O 'flat' renewal - Dan Zook/NY
3/28/2011 12:18:28 PM (3493 views)
Re: E&O 'flat' renewal - Karen Hurley/KY
3/29/2011 3:40:37 AM (3204 views)
Re: E&O 'flat' renewal - Dan Zook/NY
3/29/2011 1:20:31 PM (3361 views)

Who Owns the Sun? Spanish Woman Lays Claim - Edward Huguenin/SC
3/26/2011 5:30:00 PM (2933 views)

In Prison for Taking a Liar Loan - Leigh Attridge/MA
3/25/2011 9:33:19 PM (4593 views)
Re: In Prison for Taking a Liar Loan - john gault/CO
3/26/2011 2:01:53 AM (3322 views)
Re: In Prison for Taking a Liar Loan - Slade Smith/AK
3/26/2011 4:40:36 AM (3878 views)

Well, the guy got very unlucky to get singled out, I will grant you that.  Most mortgage frauds of this sort will probably never be prosecuted.  But I had a very different reaction to the article than you did.  To me, the article is very biased in favor of Engle, and I believe that the author missed several very relevant aspects of the case.  Consider:

-- Engle was not "the smallest of the small fry," as the author claimed.  Engle got $1 million in mortgages through inflated income applications and was apparently carrying nearly that much mortgage debt at one time.  That is a lot of money-- and he defaulted on most of that debt, apparently. 

-- Engle certainly wasn't representing himself as the smallest of the small fry at any rate.  He was representing to banks that he earned $400k per year.  If you truly are a small fry and you represent yourself as a big fry on a loan application, my opinion is that you can't go back and play the small fry card when you get in trouble.

--This was not a case where someone just fudged their income to get a little bigger house for their own residence, believing that they could make the payments.  Engle was an admitted speculator.  He bought the first property to flip, not to live in.  This alone is not a crime of course, but it differentiates Engle from those who got a liar loan on their personal residence. It is very doubtful that there were "millions of Americans" whose borrowing activities resembled Engle's, as the author implied.

-- The stated income of $400k, to which the guy admitted, is truly outrageous-- several times the guy's true annual income, apparently. 

--The author totally whiffed on the circumstances of the second loan. The author claims that the $32,500 stated monthly income on the 2nd property was "an obviously absurd amount, especially since the loan itself was for only $300,000" but it actually makes perfect sense.  Engle would have had to state a very high income on that loan, considering that he already had something in the range of $500k+ in mortgage debt on the other property.  Presumably, the lender's underwriters would have discovered that debt when they pulled his credit report.  (I certainly woul think they at least looked at a credit report on even the loosest loans, but maybe I am wrong, ha!)   He therefore would have had to state an income sufficient to make payments on close to a million in debt, not just $300k.

--This is a fraud for income scheme-- Engle was taking cash out of transactions, and admitted he was using equity he was drawing out of the loan proceeds to finance his lifestyle.  He took out $80k in cash from the 2nd transaction with the highly fraudulent $32.500/month stated income, according to the author.  According to prosecutors, he took out $140k in cash total from fraudulent transactions.

--Engle claimed that he did not ever see the $32,500/month stated income on the second loan application.  However it's pretty clear that he at least knew about it and assented to obtaining a loan using such an application, since he referred to the fact that his "my mortgage broker didn’t mind writing down, you know, that I was making four hundred thousand grand a year when he knew I wasn’t."  If the author took out his calculator he'd see that 32.5k x 12 is pretty darn close to 400k, but for some reason the author fails to make the connection. 

--It also makes sense, then, that the jury would acquit Engle on the providing false infromation charge, if it related to that application, despite the author's claim that "even the jurors seemed confused about how to think about Mr. Engle’s supposed crime."  It seems likely the jury had doubts that Engle actually created/signed the false statements.  But that would not at all change the fact that evidence showed that Engle knew that false statements were being submitted on his behalf, that the submitted loan application roughly matched Engle's understanding of the fraud, and that he was receiving fraudulent loans based on false information. 

-- The IRS agent's instincts were correct that Engle had hidden income that could not be explained by his tax returns.  It turns out that the income was the $140,000 in home equity he cashed out. 

-- While he may have "lived modestly," as the author claimed, in terms of his material possessions in the United States, his travel abroad would not have been cheap.  I've put up lots of fraud stories where one of the main expenses of the perpetrator was not cars or jewelry but  rather vacations. 

-- While the loan officer involved in the case got a lesser sentence, he pleaded guilty, and agreed to testify against Engle.  Engle rolled the dice, pleaded not guilty, and took his chances with a jury.  I do not know if Engle was offered a deal, but in my experience reporting these types of cases, defendants who go to trial and are convicted get much stiffer sentences than those who plead guilty.  Engle's lawyer surely advised him of this.  In this light, the fact that Engle got a stiffer sentence than his loan officer or others who have committed more serious mortgage fraud offenses in other cases is understandable. 

-- Which brings up the fact that Engle was convicted by a jury of his peers.  If the jury had decided that the government's case was bogus, they could have acquitted him but they chose not to.

-- How likeable or positive the guy is-- an aspect of the situation that the author focused on-- really has no bearing on whether the guy is guilty or not.

-- Whether Angelo Mozilo should have gone to jail also is not relevant toward whether Engle is guilty or not.

-- Speaking of Mozilo, he was likely not criminally prosecuted because prosecutors believed he was likely to be acquitted.  You'd have to assume that prosecutors looking to make a name for themselves would have been climbing all over each other for the chance to prosecute an unsympathetic character like Mozilo if they had a strong case.  At any rate, the author just wants us to assume that the fact that Mozilo is walking free is outrageous, but he neither alleges the specific crime for which there is a slam dunk case against Mozilo, nor does he allege any specific act of corruption that saved Mozilo from prosecution. 

In summary: the circumstances went beyond the typical liar loan in both the extent of the exaggeration of the financial credentials of Engle, and the amount of money involved.  The fact that Engle took $140k and cash out of the home in mortgage transactions and spent it on himself is an aggravating circumstance in the case.  Then, despite the fact that he was guilty of what prosecutors had charged him with, he pled not guilty to all charges, nearly guaranteeing him of a stiffer sentence if he was convicted.

I'm not  totally comfortable with how Engle was picked as a target.   There's a line to be drawn here, but I'm not sure where I would draw it.  On the one hand, finding people whose tax returns do not match their lifestyles is probably a good way to catch tax cheats.  On the other hand, this agent appears to have had an astounding amount of power in choosing his subjects to investigate.  This is probably the only aspect of the case where I thought the author had a legitimate point to make.

All this being said, it sounds like Engle is an interesting guy who made some serious mistakes, but who has many redeeming qualities also.  He has been sentenced to less than 2 years at a minimum security prison.  That is not a death sentence by any means.  If Engle is who the author says he is, he has a chance to come out of this episode in his life a better and wiser man than he went into it. 

 

 

to post a reply: login - or - register


Re: In Prison for Taking a Liar Loan - Leigh Attridge/MA
3/26/2011 9:04:03 AM (3344 views)
Re: In Prison for Taking a Liar Loan - George Booth/OH
3/26/2011 9:23:31 AM (3426 views)
Re: In Prison for Taking a Liar Loan - Kevin Ahern/CT
3/26/2011 11:52:33 AM (3474 views)
Re: In Prison for Taking a Liar Loan - Slade Smith/OH
3/26/2011 4:15:25 PM (3386 views)
Re: In Prison for Taking a Liar Loan - Leigh Attridge/MA
3/26/2011 4:46:17 PM (3537 views)
Re: In Prison for Taking a Liar Loan - Jessica Talley/FL
3/26/2011 8:53:27 PM (3461 views)
Re: In Prison for Taking a Liar Loan - George Booth/OH
3/27/2011 12:25:55 AM (3309 views)

Comment on "Chicago Lawyer Convicted in Mortgage Fraud" - Source of Title/OH
3/25/2011 1:56:17 PM (3019 views)
...and perform community service - Leigh Attridge/MA
3/25/2011 1:56:17 PM (9338 views)
Re: ...and perform community service - Slade Smith/OH
3/25/2011 4:19:48 PM (9350 views)
Community Service vs the Free Market - William Pattison /CA
3/28/2011 12:50:40 PM (9184 views)
Re: ...and perform community service - J. H./OH
3/31/2011 6:12:34 PM (9245 views)


Real Title Services


name - Loretta Atkinson/PA
3/25/2011 11:02:11 AM (3168 views)
Re: name - Jessica Talley/FL
3/25/2011 11:54:03 AM (3476 views)
Re: name - Nils Nelson/ME
3/25/2011 2:57:17 PM (3363 views)
Re: name - Russell Williams, Jr./WV
3/26/2011 11:39:22 AM (3413 views)
Re: name - Bill Garrett/MS
3/28/2011 5:03:26 AM (3355 views)
Re: name - William Pattison /CA
3/28/2011 11:33:28 AM (3280 views)
Re: name - Bill Garrett/MS
3/29/2011 1:58:26 PM (3265 views)
Re: name - Nancy Walker/AZ
3/28/2011 2:34:44 PM (3239 views)
Re: name - Jeffrey Land/PA
3/28/2011 3:00:53 PM (3436 views)
Re: name - Sheila Sten/PA
3/28/2011 9:03:02 PM (3292 views)
Re: name - K C/NJ
3/31/2011 11:14:29 AM (3236 views)
Re: name - Sheila Sten/PA
4/1/2011 6:15:23 AM (3254 views)
Re: name - Scott Perry/PA
3/29/2011 8:45:52 AM (3249 views)
Re: name - Sheila Sten/PA
3/29/2011 7:38:40 PM (3306 views)
Re: name - Scott Perry/PA
3/29/2011 7:44:42 PM (3322 views)
Re: name - Sheila Sten/PA
4/1/2011 6:14:32 AM (3262 views)
Re: name - Paula Reynolds/FL
4/30/2011 1:17:46 AM (3058 views)

"Owning" Title search - Abstractor/MI
3/25/2011 11:00:03 AM (3268 views)
Re: "Owning" Title search - Kevin Ahern/CT
3/25/2011 4:59:55 PM (3505 views)
Re: "Owning" Title search - Robert Franco/OH
3/25/2011 6:52:53 PM (3469 views)
Re: "Owning" Title search - Kevin Ahern/CT
3/25/2011 7:32:04 PM (3586 views)
Re: "Owning" Title search - Pat/MI
3/26/2011 10:23:05 AM (3388 views)
Re: "Owning" Title search - Kevin Ahern/CT
3/26/2011 11:46:52 AM (3522 views)
Re: "Owning" Title search - Saundra  Scott/MD
3/31/2011 3:28:49 PM (3197 views)

Eyes Open WAMU Still Failed - Leigh Attridge/MA
3/25/2011 8:56:23 AM (3573 views)

Comment on "Equitable Subrogation and Eliminating Title Work on Refinances" - Source of Title/OH
3/24/2011 6:02:12 PM (3791 views)
I have a question - Leigh Attridge/MA
3/24/2011 6:02:12 PM (3648 views)
Re: I have a question - Slade Smith/OH
3/25/2011 3:44:16 PM (3419 views)
Re: Comment on "Equitable Subrogation and Eliminating Title Work on Refinances" - F P
3/25/2011 11:56:42 AM (3552 views)
Re: Comment on "Equitable Subrogation and Eliminating Title Work on Refinances" - Slade Smith/OH
3/25/2011 4:10:34 PM (3491 views)
Re: Comment on "Equitable Subrogation and Eliminating Title Work on Refinances" - Leigh Attridge/MA
3/25/2011 5:26:38 PM (3684 views)
Re: Comment on "Equitable Subrogation and Eliminating Title Work on Refinances" - William Pattison /CA
3/28/2011 12:30:52 PM (3414 views)
What Jurisdiction Will This Hit First? - William Pattison /CA
3/28/2011 12:38:12 PM (3351 views)
Re: What Jurisdiction Will This Hit First? - Robert Franco/OH
3/28/2011 12:47:00 PM (3306 views)
Re: Comment on "Equitable Subrogation and Eliminating Title Work on Refinances" - Leigh Attridge/MA
3/29/2011 9:45:20 AM (3520 views)

Indictments for Methuen brothers - Leigh Attridge/MA
3/24/2011 3:08:26 PM (3876 views)

& neighbors reported mud spurting from their bathtubs... - Leigh Attridge/MA
3/23/2011 6:30:57 PM (3822 views)

Altisource - Abiel Martinez/TX
3/23/2011 12:49:01 PM (3244 views)
Re: Altisource - Nils Nelson/ME
3/23/2011 1:02:25 PM (3973 views)
Re: Altisource - RICHARD KING/RI
3/23/2011 2:41:51 PM (3842 views)
Re: Altisource - GETZEMDUN ABSTRACTING/FL
4/11/2011 1:58:41 PM (4220 views)

Genesis Servicing Corp - Abstractor/MI
3/23/2011 7:25:25 AM (3477 views)
Re: Genesis Servicing Corp - Kevin Ahern/CT
3/23/2011 8:08:32 AM (3478 views)

John Walker - Angel Kuntz/PA
3/22/2011 10:33:45 PM (3369 views)
Re: John Walker - Slade Smith/OH
3/22/2011 11:02:44 PM (4800 views)
Re: John Walker - Angel Kuntz/PA
3/23/2011 7:24:01 AM (3827 views)

Wabasha Street, St Paul, Minnesota - Leigh Attridge/MA
3/22/2011 9:53:48 AM (3567 views)


<< get older messagesget newer messages >>

DISCLAIMER: These Message Forums are un-moderated and Source of Title does not endorse the content of any of the posts. Source of Title discourages libelous comments and you, as the sole creator of the content, take full responsibility for your remarks.
Directory

The Source of Title Business directory has 8961 listed companies.

Leave feedback on a company:
SOT ID #:  learn more...
DRN Title Search
Blogs

Read other users' blogs-- or start your own!

Most Recent Blog Posts:

Shared Driveway Agreements
Marissa Berends's Blog
2025/12/10
0 comments

Explain It Like I’m 5: FIRPTA Edition
Marissa Berends's Blog
2025/12/03
0 comments

Home buyers are more active this fall.....
Michael Stelzer's Blog
2025/11/27
0 comments

Articles

Source of Title articles help to keep you informed on the state of the title industry.

NAHB Urges Congress to Ease Regulatory Burdens to Help Housing Affordability
“Regulations account for nearly 25% of the cost of a single-family home and more than 40% of the cost of a typical...
Alanna.ai Launches Legacy Data Connector To Access Historical Title Production Data
"The title industry has evolved rapidly, and many agencies have moved to newer production platforms while leaving behind...
NAR Pending Home Sales Report Shows 9.3% Decrease in December
“The housing sector is not out of the woods yet,” said NAR Chief Economist Lawrence Yun. “After severa...
Mortgage Applications Increase in Latest MBA Weekly Survey
“Mortgage rates declined further last week, driving another big week for refinance applications, which saw the str...
First American Title Launches Free Property Title Monitoring and Fraud Alert Service for Eligible Customers
First American Title Insurance Company, a leading provider of title insurance and settlement services and the largest su...

Search Articles:
browse...

Classifieds

Buy, sell, or trade! Browse the ads or post your own!

© 2020, Source of Title.